Oh well...
May. 24th, 2010 04:04 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
chaniI wasn't a big fan of the BSG finale but Lost finale makes me think that BSG finale rocked big time!
Damnit, it even makes me enjoy Dollhouse finale which says a lot!
I knew they would disappoint me in the end, I knew it! Okay I probably need time to process it, but this isn't a satisfying finale for me; :-(
I did enjoy the ride and there was some really brilliant stuff over those six seasons but I've always thought and said that Lost had flaws, more flaws than other shows I loved (BSG for instance), and that the writing was uneven and could be lame sometimes, and unfortunately it ended that way.
Don't get me wrong, there were nice things in it, especially in the smaller moments (grace is in the details!), but, even though I wouldn't say that the finale ruined the whole show, I think that the resolution kind of sucked.
That resolution worked for the alt!verse not for the whole show. I completely agree with Noel Murray when he writes that "The End" works as an episode of television but mostly fails at a six-year long show finale.
There were moving moments, mostly in the alt!verse, like when Claire had her baby and I loved that it was the trigger for both Kate and Claire (and that seeing his foot move did it for John), or Sayid and Shannon being reunited, or of course James and Juliet finding each other again or Ben making amends and John forgiving him, or the Desmond/Eloïse scene at the concert. And there was some humour in the episode too, like Not!Locke pointing out how Jack was kind of the obvious choice, or jocking at the glowy cave about how familiar it was and "if there's a button down there to push", and in the alte!verse Desmond being seated at table 23!
The thing is, at least it's my take on it, that the resolution we got wasn't fair for the island!verse and the characters' journeys. I'm glad it wasn't really a question of good vs evil in the end, but, even though I wanted it to be about the characters, the ending didn't pay off in regards to the island mythology, the five years of mystery, and the characters' journey didn't find the closure I'd hoped for.
Perhaps it's because I'm an atheist and it's life that matters to me, not afterlife, but the resolution I wanted for them had to happen in the real world, in life, not after they had passed away. No matter how well it was done (and it was, apart from the final church scene), I cared about the living characters we had followed along those years, not about their ghosts or souls and how they would finally reach the big light together after they had all died at different moments of time ––some of them died under our eyes on the island like Jin, Sun, Shannon, Boone, Juliet, Sayid, Charlie and eventually Jack, others outside of the island like Kate, Claire and James, and for Ben and Hugo we can assume they finally died on the island as number one and number two given their conversation. What did Kate, Sawyer and Claire do with their lives after they left the island? The only characters whose journey got a closure were the one who died on the island before this finale (so it wasn't really necessary to see them again, unless you want the purgatory/ afterlife thing), and Jack of course who did achieve something. And I didn't care about jack! And I would have liked to see Desmond and Penny ending together in flesh, not as ghosts. We can't be certain that Ben was right and there was another way so Desmond could go home, the show leaves us in the dark about my second favourite pairing ever, damnit!
I'd rather have had the purgatory thing from the beginning. Really, I would have prefered it if they had all died in the crash, and the whole show were about their letting go, finding peace and moving on to the afterlife. That would have been their journey from day one to this final episode, so the resolution would have worked for the whole show.
Ashes to ashes chose that path, after all, and did it well. The island could have worked as an antichamber of the afterlife(hence the Egyptian writings, the ankh, the ghosts etc), a magic place indeed where they could make things up (the famous box Ben told John about), and in the final resolution they could have remembered indeed that they already knew each other before they died, in a "real world" the show was never about, but could have been showed as an alt!verse in the last season, and that would have remained a mystery we'd only get glimpses of. That twist would have worked better IMO.
But having it both ways, with everything, including the weirdest and most supernatural stuff, that happened on the island being "real" and the sideways verse being the place their souls made up so they could gathered and be together once last time before they let go and disappeared, and wherein they finally found enligtenment, it doesn't work for me.
I mean, I sort of like the twist if you consider that the bizarre world was real and the more real-looking world is actually a construct, but if you consider the show in its long run, it doesn't work, not after five seasons without it.
The problem with Lost is that the show hesitated for a long time about what it was and what it should be.
And really, the church scene was corny and just too religious for my taste!
Well, at least we got a really decent finale last week for Ashes to ashes.
ETA: because I always manage to find redeeming qualities to the finale of the shows I love. If there's one thing I love about the alt!verse being actually a world of dead people, it's the fact they forgot everything about their life and the people they loved when they were alive. It is very Greek, and once again for the last time, Desmond on Lost played the role of Odysseus. If you have read Homer you know what I mean. When Odysseus went to the underworld, he met dead people (his mother and then Tiresias) and triggered their memories by making them drink blood so he could ask them questions. So if anyone was meant to help our dead characters to remember it was Desmond indeed.
Damnit, it even makes me enjoy Dollhouse finale which says a lot!
I knew they would disappoint me in the end, I knew it! Okay I probably need time to process it, but this isn't a satisfying finale for me; :-(
I did enjoy the ride and there was some really brilliant stuff over those six seasons but I've always thought and said that Lost had flaws, more flaws than other shows I loved (BSG for instance), and that the writing was uneven and could be lame sometimes, and unfortunately it ended that way.
Don't get me wrong, there were nice things in it, especially in the smaller moments (grace is in the details!), but, even though I wouldn't say that the finale ruined the whole show, I think that the resolution kind of sucked.
That resolution worked for the alt!verse not for the whole show. I completely agree with Noel Murray when he writes that "The End" works as an episode of television but mostly fails at a six-year long show finale.
There were moving moments, mostly in the alt!verse, like when Claire had her baby and I loved that it was the trigger for both Kate and Claire (and that seeing his foot move did it for John), or Sayid and Shannon being reunited, or of course James and Juliet finding each other again or Ben making amends and John forgiving him, or the Desmond/Eloïse scene at the concert. And there was some humour in the episode too, like Not!Locke pointing out how Jack was kind of the obvious choice, or jocking at the glowy cave about how familiar it was and "if there's a button down there to push", and in the alte!verse Desmond being seated at table 23!
The thing is, at least it's my take on it, that the resolution we got wasn't fair for the island!verse and the characters' journeys. I'm glad it wasn't really a question of good vs evil in the end, but, even though I wanted it to be about the characters, the ending didn't pay off in regards to the island mythology, the five years of mystery, and the characters' journey didn't find the closure I'd hoped for.
Perhaps it's because I'm an atheist and it's life that matters to me, not afterlife, but the resolution I wanted for them had to happen in the real world, in life, not after they had passed away. No matter how well it was done (and it was, apart from the final church scene), I cared about the living characters we had followed along those years, not about their ghosts or souls and how they would finally reach the big light together after they had all died at different moments of time ––some of them died under our eyes on the island like Jin, Sun, Shannon, Boone, Juliet, Sayid, Charlie and eventually Jack, others outside of the island like Kate, Claire and James, and for Ben and Hugo we can assume they finally died on the island as number one and number two given their conversation. What did Kate, Sawyer and Claire do with their lives after they left the island? The only characters whose journey got a closure were the one who died on the island before this finale (so it wasn't really necessary to see them again, unless you want the purgatory/ afterlife thing), and Jack of course who did achieve something. And I didn't care about jack! And I would have liked to see Desmond and Penny ending together in flesh, not as ghosts. We can't be certain that Ben was right and there was another way so Desmond could go home, the show leaves us in the dark about my second favourite pairing ever, damnit!
I'd rather have had the purgatory thing from the beginning. Really, I would have prefered it if they had all died in the crash, and the whole show were about their letting go, finding peace and moving on to the afterlife. That would have been their journey from day one to this final episode, so the resolution would have worked for the whole show.
Ashes to ashes chose that path, after all, and did it well. The island could have worked as an antichamber of the afterlife(hence the Egyptian writings, the ankh, the ghosts etc), a magic place indeed where they could make things up (the famous box Ben told John about), and in the final resolution they could have remembered indeed that they already knew each other before they died, in a "real world" the show was never about, but could have been showed as an alt!verse in the last season, and that would have remained a mystery we'd only get glimpses of. That twist would have worked better IMO.
But having it both ways, with everything, including the weirdest and most supernatural stuff, that happened on the island being "real" and the sideways verse being the place their souls made up so they could gathered and be together once last time before they let go and disappeared, and wherein they finally found enligtenment, it doesn't work for me.
I mean, I sort of like the twist if you consider that the bizarre world was real and the more real-looking world is actually a construct, but if you consider the show in its long run, it doesn't work, not after five seasons without it.
The problem with Lost is that the show hesitated for a long time about what it was and what it should be.
And really, the church scene was corny and just too religious for my taste!
Well, at least we got a really decent finale last week for Ashes to ashes.
ETA: because I always manage to find redeeming qualities to the finale of the shows I love. If there's one thing I love about the alt!verse being actually a world of dead people, it's the fact they forgot everything about their life and the people they loved when they were alive. It is very Greek, and once again for the last time, Desmond on Lost played the role of Odysseus. If you have read Homer you know what I mean. When Odysseus went to the underworld, he met dead people (his mother and then Tiresias) and triggered their memories by making them drink blood so he could ask them questions. So if anyone was meant to help our dead characters to remember it was Desmond indeed.
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no subject
Date: 2010-05-24 02:55 pm (UTC)Logically? Yep, failure there -- but I think "Across the Sea" actually did a very good job of setting my expectations for the lack of answers here.
Desmond/Penny was a huge disappointment for me, too. But really we had so many lovely moments for them, including the phone and in person reunion - that I think it would be hard to top them. Something more definitive was definitely called for there, though.
I'll be interested to see of your responses change over time, or if mine do, because I think there are different response levels to something like this.
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Date: 2010-05-24 02:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-24 03:11 pm (UTC)*fist pump of victory*
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Date: 2010-05-24 03:50 pm (UTC)It's like they used the 'ships and emotionally filled moments to cover up an ultimate failure.
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Date: 2010-05-25 07:39 am (UTC)I mostly agree.
Too much tugging at the heartstrings - too much focus on the Alt!Verse. There were little scenes that I enjoyed: Like Jin and Sun in the hospital meeting Sawyer and being so happy and relaxed. I'm not sure I like the implications about the afterlife, but their quiet joy was wonderful.
I would have liked, like you, to have seen, how Hugo changed the rules as Number 1. Obviously, he changed the relationship between the two people on the island: They're not antagonists any more.
I didn't like it that in the church everyone was happily coupled up (except for Christian Shepard and wasn't it nice how Kate said: Really? That's his name?), as if that was the prerequisite to fulfilment. And Shannon and Sayid is no my ship of choice for him.
I'm sure that Desmond managed to get home (and I sort of didn't need to see it).
no subject
Date: 2010-05-25 08:17 am (UTC)Hm, I've just realized that with Smokey gone, Ben has taken the place of Richard.
And - silly idea - Hugo with his business sense has turned the island into an exclusive new agey resort. Kate, Claire and Aaron visit every year. Sawyer doesn't visit as often, but he's been back once or twice. And on Sundays Hugo goes to see Bernard and Rose and has lunch with them.
no subject
Date: 2010-05-25 08:50 am (UTC)Since we're going silly...I think that with Hugo being the boss, we have chickens running around instead of polar bears!
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Date: 2010-05-25 08:49 am (UTC)Yep, two by two like in an ark, but the Shepard is alone, guiding the ewes into the light...
And yes they indulged in joking about their own Christian overtones with Kate's comment.
I agree that we had already seen the Penny/Desmond reunion once and it wasn't necessary to see it again, but I'm frustrated by the way they leave the island and it's inhabitants.
And no limbo world for Vincent? Too bad there wasn't a female dog on the island...
no subject
Date: 2010-05-25 12:34 pm (UTC)Here's another person (http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/whats-alan-watching/posts/lost-the-end-see-you-in-the-other-life-brother) who agrees with us. Or rather, I agree with him.
no subject
Date: 2010-05-25 06:26 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-25 10:18 am (UTC)My 95 year old mother saw and loved it that way (she had trouble remembering the mythos of the series). And I choose to do so also.
But I think it worth noting that their moment of 'now' is more a shared vision encompassing the entire LAXverse/flash-sideways and acknowledging their interconnectedness due to their time associated with the Island. To me it happens in the twinkling of an eye, be that Jack's eye as he lay dying, or as in the moment of her death, when Juliet pronounced, "It worked." In real time - Island time, that is when Juliet experienced her vision of the LAXverse/flash-sideways and also in the Church. Just as for Hugo or Ben it could have been millenia into the future.
...
no subject
Date: 2010-05-25 05:28 pm (UTC)Also I found that they relied too much on an heavily handled emotion with the music manipulating the audience.It was schamltzy.
I guess I wanted a more intellectual ending because what I liked on Lost was the thought-provoking stuff and the clever writing(and Locke!)not the romantic pairings(except for Desmond/Penny), and this finale focused too much on 'ships and not enough in giving a meaning to what happened to them on the island.
Now the big question is...waht the heck am I going to post about now?!!!!
I wish caprica would come back sooner...
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Date: 2010-05-26 01:51 am (UTC)I will tell you Walt is less important to the ultimate story than Boone or Shannon who both died on the Island. Certainly, Boone's relationship with Locke was of more import that Locke and Walt. And like I have said elsewhere Walt may have gone on to form relationships much more important than the ones on the Island (which is what the final tableau was all about). Actually, I think we can be sure he did considering how low a regard he held for his father.
Heehee.... I'm a sucker for a good meaningful music track, so what can I say? I always have been.
What are we going to do now? I was just hoping I'd live to see the last episode of LOST. Now? I guess I'm LOST!
...
no subject
Date: 2010-05-26 06:51 pm (UTC)You are not Lost. You have Caprica to look forward!
And if you can grab reruns of BSG on the cable I will watch them with you, I promise.
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Date: 2010-05-27 06:06 am (UTC)BSG it is.... I imagine I get less channels than you do though. Might be a while before it is replayed.
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Date: 2010-05-25 06:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-25 01:43 pm (UTC)At first I didn't much like the finale (or rather the end of the finale) at all, and felt very underwhelmed and disappointed. But my feelings towards it are gradually shifting and I feel far more favourable towards it.
I disagree with you in that I think it was a flawed episode and a flawed season, but as a resolution to the show it worked well, for me. Which wasn't initially what I thought. I think it's flawed in that they introduced what the sideways universe was too late, so you not only had to deal with that revelation which was pretty much out of nowhere, together with saying goodbye to the characters. Too much too quickly.
I also think that the show didn't help itself with the sideways universe being used so heavily, when ultimately it didn't really service the characters or the plot in the real world at all. I can be totally behind with the concept of the afterlife (even if it isn't quite to my taste) but I think too much time ultimately was expended on something that didn't have enough of a connection to the main plot, but was instead to give the characters a happy ending.
I think, though, that this is more a problem of construction and structure rather than what actually happened. I understand your point that you wanted the characters who were still alive to have a proper resolution, but I think the problem there is that there are so many dead characters and I think the show deserved an ending that paid some sort of service to those who were dead. Otherwise from the main castaways, it's only Hurley, Claire, Kate and Sawyer who make it. Which is pretty much of a downer, and I'm not surprised they want to avoid that. So I see the sense in having the concept of the afterlife, even if the structure that lead them to get there caused problems.
And I think that the resolution of those in the real world still left alive was undermined by that happy ending, and that if we hadn't had the afterlife reveal, what happened would be satisfying and pack more of an emotional punch than it did. I think that each character still standing by the end had a resolution that was right for them, even if we didn't see what happened next. So Jack had his sacrifice and his change to the island, Hurley became the caretaker to change the game of how things could be run, Ben finally accepts his place in relation to the island, Desmond would go back to his family, and the others would go back to their lives. While it may be nice to see the results of that, I don't think it would have been necessary dramatically to do so.
But I think the idea of the afterlife lessened the impact of that resolution and the implications of it, partly because it was such a big and new concept to deal with at a late notice, and partly because the creators wanted to service all of the characters.
I do think there were problems with the episode and what it meant for this season, but as a finale I think it was just and appropriate. As I say, initially I was disappointed, but I haven't been able to stop thinking about it and my feelings towards it has grown. I don't think it was helped having seen Ashes to Ashes only a few days before, which dealt with the concept of the afterlife in a better fashion and with more internal justification.
And it was far, far, far better than the BSG finale, which still leaves me bitter.
no subject
Date: 2010-05-25 05:57 pm (UTC)We actually mostly agree, my dear.
I also think that the show didn't help itself with the sideways universe being used so heavily, when ultimately it didn't really service the characters or the plot in the real world at all. I can be totally behind with the concept of the afterlife (even if it isn't quite to my taste) but I think too much time ultimately was expended on something that didn't have enough of a connection to the main plot, but was instead to give the characters a happy ending.
*nods*
Now get out of my head!!! ;- )
Yes the afterlife thing came too late, or the show lasted too much! Also I they wrote themselves into a corner when they created the Jacob/MiB thing and turned the island into the Jacob's place.
I think, though, that this is more a problem of construction and structure rather than what actually happened. I understand your point that you wanted the characters who were still alive to have a proper resolution, but I think the problem there is that there are so many dead characters and I think the show deserved an ending that paid some sort of service to those who were dead. Otherwise from the main castaways, it's only Hurley, Claire, Kate and Sawyer who make it. Which is pretty much of a downer, and I'm not surprised they want to avoid that. So I see the sense in having the concept of the afterlife, even if the structure that lead them to get there caused problems.
True. But you see, it was the structure that I liked the best on Lost, hence my disappointment. And all the religious stuff bothers me.
I don't think it was helped having seen Ashes to Ashes only a few days before, which dealt with the concept of the afterlife in a better fashion and with more internal justification.
Words! Lost pulled out an afterlife thingy out of its hat seemingly at the last minute,undermining the main plot, while Ashes to ashes made the whole show make sense through the final resolution. And I would have the Gene Genie anytime instead of Christian Shepard!
The American show makes the characters gather in a Church, the British one leads them to a pub...
This French is obviously more British-oriented!
But I bet that, like you, I will find things that give meaning to the Lost finale eventually. For instance it's interesting to see the kind of fantasy life the characters gave themselves after their death in the limbo. No much change for Kate, but James turned himself into a cop. And Eloïse, she knew the truth even before Desmond started his mission!
By the way it's funny how we manage to redeem a finale with the passing of time. I wasn't that thrilled by "Chosen" first, and then I thought about it and eventually decided it was a good resolution.
And it was far, far, far better than the BSG finale, which still leaves me bitter.
Now that is our biggest disagreement! ;- )
I rewatched it recently and I kinda liked it now. I wouldn't say it's the best finale ever, and it has flaws, but it isn't as disconnected with the whole series as the ending of Lost is.
BTW do you watch Caprica? I would love to discuss Caprica with you! I miss the goold old board times.
no subject
Date: 2010-05-26 10:04 am (UTC)In terms of the BSG finale, I don't think it's disconnected from the show as what it reveals is certainly in line with hints given throughout (although I found the Opera house reveal to be immensely literal). But I largely enjoyed it. Until the last 5 minutes, which still really really really really annoy me. I think it was a cheap shot unworthy of the show's general tone and content and was completely unnecessary and spoiled what went before.
And yes, I do watch Caprica. I really enjoy it (mostly - if they could get rid of Joseph, at least). This will be heresy but I can see it becoming better than BSG. So I will definitely be up for discussing it!
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Date: 2010-05-26 12:02 pm (UTC)My hated the Time Square scene first so I totally understand you, but I have made my peace with it since the BSG finale aired. Here is how:
http://frenchani.livejournal.com/345585.html
I knew we would agree on Caprica!
Joseph isn't very interesting but I love the Joseph/Daniel chemistry. Actually I completely fell in love with Daniel Graystone!
You should join the Caprica LJ community so we'll be able discuss it with other fans. And you're welcome here of course.
no subject
Date: 2010-05-26 02:53 pm (UTC)Although what I really hated about the final scene was that it was implied that this was a key turning point in history, that the same was about to happen all over again and their vision of peace would be destroyed. Which is fine as it goes, but does ignore all the war, genocide and slavery the earth has seen since the humans were first around. I know it can be argued that this is just about robots, but it just seems to me to be pointlessly trying -too-hard-to-shock scene which was unnecessary for what went before. Rant over.
I think the Adamas aren't interesting at all really, but I hope they will improve. I think Adama in the V world was the lowest point of the show, but the Greystone arc and the birth of the cylons is fascinating stuff.
I do plan to use LJ more, so look forward to more discussions!
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Date: 2010-05-26 06:48 pm (UTC)On the other hand, they never said that the new Earth as it was before the A.I was a world of peace, they just pointed out that Lee's choice couldn't prevent a certain evolution.
I look forward to seeing your LJ posts, now you have to make it happen! ;- )
no subject
Date: 2010-05-26 01:27 am (UTC)And I would have liked to see Desmond and Penny ending together in flesh, not as ghosts. We can't be certain that Ben was right and there was another way so Desmond could go home, the show leaves us in the dark about my second favourite pairing ever, damnit!
Yes, I was disappointed that we never got to see more of Desmond and Penny. And I don't know why, but I'm convinced that Desmond got off the island and back to Penny and Charlie eventually. I just wish we'd been able to see it!
The church scene was sentimental, yes, but I liked it. I'm not a religious person by any means, but I would like to believe that we do see our loved ones again after we die, so on that level it did work for me.
I think Ashes to Ashes probably did it better, but the Lost finale more than made up for it with the wonderful character moments we were given, so I was happy.
I'd even go as far as to say that the Ashes to Ashes and Lost finales are tied as my two favourite endings to any TV show. And I'm grateful that we got an ending to Lost at all, as so many shows are cancelled before they reach a conclusion these days!
no subject
Date: 2010-05-26 12:05 pm (UTC)