Not an essay...

[chani]

And yet here I am, discussing Buffy again, and it's all stormwreath 's andjamalov29 's fault!

There were talks about feminism and feminist icon on their lj and it triggered that Buffy-trained muscle that has been dormant for a while, a part of my brain I thought I no longer had a use of. I toldjamalov29 that I disagreed with her views according to which Joss had made Buffy fall from feminist grace in season6 and therefore done worse to the feminist icon then than the comics did later. I "shortly" explained myself on her lj but I need to gather my thoughts and write down something  a bit more articulate. Besides there's nothing on tv tonight!

So it's like the good old time...

Keep in mind though, that I don't read the comics and therefore won't discuss them much (that would be unfair) in this post. However, I couldn't completely avoid some reactions the comics caused and will hint at them and use what I understood from said reactions to back up my "reading".

First off, I must say that I don't think that the premise of BtVs is necessarily feminsist. In my opinion, it's only later, especially in season 7, that Joss really achieved his feminist mission (I'll get back to that later). Yes, BtVs, from the movie to the tv pilot, to the rest of the series, told the story of a blonde girl who had superpowers and who had been chosen to save the world, but I think that the Slayer thing was more a way to twist the usual screen cliché than a deliberate feminist message. Twisting cliches was Joss's trademark then. It took the usual blonde victim and turned her into the very fear that the demons/vampires/creatures fear: THE SLAYER!

Besides Buffy was much more sexualized––or if you prefer, sexier––in the earlier seasons than in the last ones, even though she fully embraced her sexuality and were more sexually aggressive when she wore longer skirts, showed less cleavage and basically had less flesh on her bones.  

And for a long time, I considered that BtVS's main theme was growing-up not female impowerment, and the show carried on the "growing-up" theme until the end. All the characters(minus Giles, Joyce and Angel), not only Buffy, served that leitmotiv. It was about their journey towards adulthood and a character like Xander for instance progressed A LOT! 
Of course our main character being a female, growing-up and becoming an adult could imply a feminist facet (is that a word in English?) and it slowly did. The men in Buffy's world played a role that is significant so I guess that her relationship with them could be read through the prism of feminism as well, but they were also plot device that helped telling many other things; That was a complex show after all, multi-layered and so rich we can write stuff about it still.

In terms of feminism I think that season 4 was a the beginning of a turning point although "Becoming Part II" had a certain feminist ring as Buffy fought Angelus and stopped his sword saying that she still had herself. It started in season 4, in spite of Buffy's eagerness to suit Riley's expectations and be the "normal girlfriend" instead of herself, because Buffy fought  a very manly organization, The Initiative, and a very manly villain (Adam). Also at the beginning of the season, there was "Something Blue" and the way Buffy behaved before and under the spell was meaningful. When Willow's magic kicked in, Buffy found herself madly "in love" and behaved like a silly smitten girl but she still fought with Spike, not letting him make the decisions for the couple, was bossy and warned that she wouldn't stop her job after the wedding etc...and her strength was emphasized by the fact he fought he couldn't fight demons and had to relie on her for security matters. Spike mentioned "girl power" then. 

After that, her relationship with Riley was a sort of regression since Buffy was afraid of what was dormant in her. Or rather "Something blue" was a sort of preview of what things could be...but it was too soon. Buffy hadn't grown up yet. The college time was her conformist phase, in which she tried to fit in, to be what Riley wanted/needed; in which she held back when he was her sparring partner, tried to join HIS team...and left the room at night to work out her frustrations by hunting and slaying things. The famous sex scene in the haunted house was significant then. Buffy wasn't in control. Buffy and Riley kept making love, not because they wanted it but because a Poltergeist made them do it over and over. There is a big different between that  scene and the Spuffy sex in season  6, not matter how self-destructive and bitchy Buffy was and how messy (and kind of sordid sometimes) the affair became, both of them had a say in it. Eventually Buffy who kissed first, initiated the first intercourse and most of the time chose when and where, finally realised how wrong and mutually damaging it was and she ended it up. The passionate frolics looked like something she couldn't resist, and it's the very definition of passion, but it was still a choice she made, and Spike chose to let it be her call.

This is why I disagree with Caroline when she said that her behaviour was a fall from feminist grace.

S6 Spuffy definitely turned the tables, not necassarily because of gender reversal (I think that their dom/sub play was more complicated than that) or because Spike was heavily sexualized,, becoming a true pin-up, a sort of male Odalisque even, but because our traumatized Buffy who died but was walking again among the living after she clawed her way out of a coffin, was behaving like a vampire; she was predatory and seemed to seek darkness and pain while inflicting it. She metaphorically became what used to be her worst nightmare, and Spike became the blond victim who inspired lust and either gave in the demon's seduction or was hurt by the demon(the scene in which Buffy beat him in"Dead Things" was definitely the climax of the vamp/victim dialectics as Spike's face switched to his human guise while she was still punching ) which was fascinating. She seemed to have become the villain, hence the parallel with Warren, the same Warren who had turned his ex into a sex slave and finally killed her, the same Warren who had built the Buffybot for Spike in the previous season. Of course, Buffy being the hero and Spike being himself on a redemption journey, our Slayer didn't really became an evil fiend , she just behaved with Spike in a way that reminded his using the Buffybot. How ironic given that once upon a time Buffy pretended to be the bot and began to see Spike in a new light from then on. Eventually she became "Normal Again".

Buffy did slip again (I say again because at the beginning of season 2 she already did in the well-titled episode, "When she was bad", using Xander and teasing, and above all, torturing a vampire to get info...since it was just a vampire torture was okay, just like she excused her abusing Spike to herself because he was a soulless fiend), and was bad when she was shagging Spike, but that messy affair probably made her question things and ponder morality, and face her inner demons, allowing her to resume an introspection she sorta started when seeing herself through Faith's eyes or with "Restless" and more consciously continued  later in season 5 when summoning the first Slayer in "Intervention"; I don't see it as a "fall from grace" but as something that looked like a detour but actually took her (and Spike since it led to the AR in "Seeing Red" and then to his seeking his soul) farther away. It is something that might have helped her to overcome the First Evil eventually. 

And because it's a complex show with many layers and meanings, s 6 Spuffy also showed Buffy embracing the Slayer's libido and getting what even Mick Jagger would call SATISFACTION! 

I do think that, for a woman, acknowledging your personal sexuality, needs, likes and dislikes–– whether it's a powerful libido or a weaker one whatever–– instead of following what is expected from you by the others(especially those of the male category), is part of female empowerment. 

And BtVS ended in its last season with characters becoming adult (even Spike, no longer suffering from the Peter Pan syndrome and becoming his own person at last)and with what was, in my opinion (I know that some fans didn't read it that way, we argued a lot about it in 2003 on boards), a great metaphor of female empowerment. Buffy became a true feminist icon then. The spell both Buffy (it was her call and her Scythe) and Willow made sums it all. They changed the ancient way, the patriarchal system the Shadow Men created  and over which the Council of Watchers, well... watched. Buffy "graduated" from Chosen One to the One Who Chooses which is already a feminist message. It was also the end of a time of Potentials(we also called them Slayers in Training at the time) waiting for being either picked or not (let's think of Kennedy saying that it was probably too late for her); Buffy started a new era in which potential could be fulfilled; she asked Willow to make a spell allowing any girl who MIGHT be a Slayer to become one.  Here I can't help using the feline metaphor slayerhood has always been connected to and borrowing the sharkman's words in season 6: kittens by time were turned into cats.

Is there a better metaphor of empowerment than the fact of having your potential not be lost but be accomplished?

Buffy changed the world like Greek heroes used to, and unlike greek heroes who were of the male variety, she is a woman.

This is where I allow myself to mention the comics that I don't read and don't intend to read. 

I'm tip-toeing as much as I can but from what I understand of that pseudo season 8 ( I said pseudo because it is no longer a tv show) through the reactions I came across, Buffy behaved rather out of character in the comics and in the infamous issues that stirred such hubbub online. If I'm correct, after Angel was reaveled as Twilight, a character who had slaughtered hundreds of  slayers, Buffy and Angel had some flying cosmic and deadly fuckfest that showed some surnatural glow which could suggest that Buffy might not be really "in control" of her actions; I have nothing to say in regard to the drawings for I haven't seen them but many people seem to think they are bad; I can't give an opinion on the pornographic nature of the scene either, although I guess it's rather soft porn and I would be surprised if Angel's cock and Buffy's genitalia were showed. It is possible that I would have found the scenes ridiculous or boring but I doubted I would have been shocked or uncomfortable for I used to read French comics that were for adults (saying that it was not porn, rather Sci-Fi or History) and that didn't shy away from total nudity and very graphic scenes that could compete with the ones in indie movies like Shortbus. I don't think that drawing Buffy in the nude and in explicit positions is necessarily an issue feminism-wise, no matter how tasteless the drawings may be.

But the sex per se isn't what concerns me here anyway, and if Bangel no longer had the Lolita-vibe that used to come off the 'ship on tv I guess it wouldn't be a problem except from a shipping war angle(let's not wake up my Spuffy muscle). I'm mentioning the Twangel/Buffy sex because of the context and the subtext. From what I read there seem to be two options. Either Buffy made a decision because she's had the hots for Angel for 8 years and she did want him even after what he did, or she is in some thrall and someone else is pulling the strings. If this is the latter, we are in the same situation as the one with Riley in the haunted house (see above) and it's definitely not a feminist message for she is reduced to a mere pawn; if it is the former, it's even worse for it goes against the end of "Chosen" and the daring choice Buffy made then, sharing her power with all the Potentials in the world, helping them to fulfil their potential. If Buffy is so "in love" that she prefered to shag the one who had recently killed many of her "sisters" it is quite sad, and I understand that many fans considered it "a fall from feminist grace". If Angel is proven right in his belief that killing hundreds of Slayers is for the good it ruins the final metaphor of "Chosen" because Buffy's choice then becomes a mistake. If Angel is proven wrong, Buffy is a fool and still betrayed her sisters. 

Either way we lose something precious, I think.  


ETA: David Lavery put on his blog links to an issue of Slayage, "the journal of the Whedon studies association" and  here's a link to an essay on the limits of feminism you might want to read

Comments

[jamalov29.livejournal.com]

Buffy found herself madly "in love" and behaved like a silly smitten girl but she still fought with Spike, not letting him make the decisions for the couple, was bossy and warned that she wouldn't stop her job after the wedding etc...and her strength was emphasized by the fact he fought he couldn't fight demons and had to relie on her for security matters. Spike mentioned "girl power" then. Yes . Nods profusely.

I do think that, for a woman, acknowledging your personal sexuality, needs, likes and dislikes–– whether it's a powerful libido or a weaker one whatever–– instead of following what is expected from you by the others(especially those of the male category), is part of female empowerment. You're so right. I didn't even think of that particular aspect of their sexual games.
Buffy became a true feminist icon then. In season 7 she regained her feminist status in my eyes , too.

It is possible that I would have found the scenes ridiculous or boring but I doubted I would have been shocked or uncomfortable . from the scans I could see , it was indeed ridiculous and distasteful but not shocking .

As for the comics , it looks bad either way but, there are several issues that may explain the situation.If they're in a thrall , if the both of them are Universe pawns , there's no threat for the feminist status.
If Buffy is so "in love" that she prefered to shag the one who had recently killed many of her "sisters" it is quite sad, and I understand that many fans considered it "a fall from feminist grace". I disagree. I'm also too tired to argue.:(

You have pretty and great arguments. And I think we we're on agreement on several points. However you know my answer to you in my own post and I cling to my belief about season 6 ,while accepting different povs.

De toutes façons , "ma" Buffy est quelque part en Europe en train de régler leur compte à des créatures démoniaques, avec un flamboyant et féroce Spike à ses côtés. :-)

[frenchani.livejournal.com]

if the both of them are Universe pawns , there's no threat for the feminist status.

From The One Who Chooses and changed the world to simple pawn I say that it's a huge fall !!!


"If Buffy is so "in love" that she prefered to shag the one who had recently killed many of her "sisters" it is quite sad, and I understand that many fans considered it "a fall from feminist grace"". I disagree. I'm also too tired to argue.:(

Too bad! I'm exhausted too, but stubborn, so in case you didn't understand me above, I shall explain again. I can see it as a fall from the feminism she embodied in "Chosen" because it would be going back on the choice she made in "Chosen", she made that "race of slayers" so jumping Angel while knowing what he did (and doesn't regret!)means sort of accepting his Slayer-slaughtering agenda, considering his Slayercide less important than lust/love while the race of slayers represented female empowerment. It's anti-feminist.

Allez au lit! Bonne nuit.

[jamalov29.livejournal.com]

From The One Who Chooses and changed the world to simple pawn I say that it's a huge fall !!! Ah but it could be regarded as a fall it it were the final issue , and it isn't. It's part of the journey. Again, a strong and self-confident woman can be weak without losing her feminist qualities in a heartbeat.

so jumping Angel while knowing what he did (and doesn't regret!)means sort of accepting his Slayer-slaughtering agenda, considering his Slayercide less important than lust/love while the race of slayers represented female empowerment. It's anti-feminist. See stormwreath 's comment on this , he spoke on my behalf I would say.

[jerusha]

This was a very thoughtful, and thought-provoking, post. If nothing else, S8 and the recent issue, have given us some really great meta.

[frenchani.livejournal.com]

Thank you for taking the time to read my contribution in spite of my clumsy English.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

For something that's not an essay that was very thoughtful and, well, long. ;-)

I don't think that the premise of BtVs is necessarily feminist.

I think that depends on how you're defining feminism. If you go with "Feminism is the radical notion that women are people", then 'Buffy' - a show which takes its female protagonist seriously, shows her growing into a strong, self-confident and heroic woman respected by her friends and enemies alike - is very much feminist. It's only if you say that to qualify, a show must tackle "serious themes" about women's rights in a very self-conscious manner that questions arise. S7 does do that, and I think there was an element of Joss saying "The show's nearly over, so let's make our underlying message explicit now so we end on a positive note"; but that doesn't invalidate the earlier seasons.


Interesting view of Riley; I'd not considered the idea before that Buffy was trying to conform and "join his team". It's a good insight. One thing that has struck me is that before 'Surprise', Buffy trusted Angel and sometimes allowed herself be weak and vulnerable with him. He was her safe space. When he betrayed her, she decided (subconsciously) that she could never let her guard down with another man again. Riley sensed that, and it's what drove him away since it wasn't what he needed from a relationship. I'm not sure quite how that ties up with your view of them. :-)


Either Buffy made a decision because she's had the hots for Angel for 8 years and she did want him even after what he did, or she is in some thrall

My reading is a mixture of all the above and some other stuff too. I know it's possibly dangerous to say this in your hearing (;-)), but I do think Buffy had the hots for Angel all along - at least in a small, tucked away part of her mind. He was her first lover and she never quite got over him. That doesn't mean she can't love anybody else, and I think she's well aware that a relationship with Angel is a bad idea and would never work... but whenever she sees him again, part of her reacts the way the 17-year old girl did. Look at 'I Will Remember You', 'Forever' and 'End Of Days', let alone 'Twilight' - almost every time Buffy and Angel meet after the end of Season 3 they end up kissing passionately at the very least. So there's that.

Buffy is in an emotionally vulnerable position at the moment. She's seen her Slayer Army vilified and destroyed by the rest of humanity. Many of the women who trusted her to lead them are dead. She's been told that it will all come to nothing; posterity won't even remember them. Because she's Buffy, she blames herself for this. Then Angel comes along to say that no, everything that's happened wasn't for nothing; there's a higher purpose behind it all. Something good. Oh, and he's been on her side all along, trying to help her from behind the scenes. Buffy's immediate reaction is sceptical, even angry; she doesn't believe him and hates the fact that he's been playing with her. But he asks her to search her heart, because she knows he's right. And she does, and then she believes him. Was she wrong to? Many fans think so, but Buffy's always been one to trust her instincts.

As for the thrall - Willow says it's controlling them, not letting them stop having sex. Much like WTWTA. My own reading, though, is that Buffy willingly chose to do this. She let the glow take charge of her. Angel challenged her, "Don't you want to be happy?", and she thought about it, then floated up into the air so she was on a higher level than him, grabbed the lapels of his coat and dragged him towards her for a kiss. If there's a drugs metaphor, I don't think it's Rohypnol; it's two adults deciding to get high and have wild crazy sex while they're out of their heads.

That's not the wisest of things to do, of course. I think she's surrendering some of her autonomy because she's at an emotional low point. But as I've said lots of times recently, this isn't the final issue of the comic. There are still six to come. This is 'Weight Of The World' or 'The Yoko Factor' or 'Seeing Red' or 'Empty Places'; it's Buffy's lowest ebb before she rallies and comes back for the grand finale. At least, I hope it is. :-)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

If you go with "Feminism is the radical notion that women are people", then 'Buffy' - a show which takes its female protagonist seriously, shows her growing into a strong, self-confident and heroic woman respected by her friends and enemies alike - is very much feminist.

I agree with this. That's one reason Buffy is so important to me: her story is presented as important. She's the hero of her own life. That's a very rare and precious thing.

Of course, I often want more, but I'm thankful that this never wavered (well...except for the AR, which I would argue makes her story subservient to Spike's, but that's a whole 'nother issue).

And...I'm not going to comment on the rest. :D

[frenchani.livejournal.com]

I think that depends on how you're defining feminism. If you go with "Feminism is the radical notion that women are people", then 'Buffy' - a show which takes its female protagonist seriously, shows her growing into a strong, self-confident and heroic woman respected by her friends and enemies alike - is very much feminist. It's only if you say that to qualify, a show must tackle "serious themes" about women's rights in a very self-conscious manner that questions arise. S7 does do that, and I think there was an element of Joss saying "The show's nearly over, so let's make our underlying message explicit now so we end on a positive note"; but that doesn't invalidate the earlier seasons.

I completely agree. Of course not many tv shows had such strong female lead, so of course BtVS could be seen as "feminist" since day one, but I still believe that it wasn't the biggest deal then, that Joss' hidden agenda was rather to subvert a certain horror genre, and twist common tropes, and that growing-up is the main issue the whole series talk about.


I know it's possibly dangerous to say this in your hearing (;-)), but I do think Buffy had the hots for Angel all along - at least in a small, tucked away part of her mind. He was her first lover and she never quite got over him. That doesn't mean she can't love anybody else, and I think she's well aware that a relationship with Angel is a bad idea and would never work... but whenever she sees him again, part of her reacts the way the 17-year old girl did.

*gets ready to fetch the Scythe*

Actually, I don't disagree at all with that. I've always thought that when you do love you don't stop loving. My problem wasn't the fact that she never really got over me and that he would still have an effect on her, but that he jumped his bones in spite of knowing he was Twilight and choosing to turn a blind eye on it.

She's seen her Slayer Army vilified and destroyed by the rest of humanity. Many of the women who trusted her to lead them are dead. She's been told that it will all come to nothing; posterity won't even remember them. Because she's Buffy, she blames herself for this. Then Angel comes along to say that no, everything that's happened wasn't for nothing; there's a higher purpose behind it all.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Angel did kill hundreds of Slayers, didn't he? He isn't just giving a meaning to the death of said Slayer. He did destroy what she had made possible. Anyway the fact that so many Slayer were destroyed because they were Slayer (not because it's a dangerous job with expiration date, but because they became a target, like in a genocide) and the decision she made in "Chosen" might now, possibly, be showed as a mistake undermines a metaphor that was such a great way to end Buffy's journey with.

But again my "reading" is based on reactions I read not on the comics themselves, and I was mostly trying to explain why I, unlike Caroline, understood the reasons fans could consider the S. 8 storyline "a fall from feminist grace". And above all, I wanted to point that Buffy, despite all her lowest moments in the late seasons was more than never a feminist icon.

But yes using the comics here, while I never read one issue, and backing up my points with hearsay wasn't really sporting. :- )

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Angel did kill hundreds of Slayers, didn't he?
All we know for certain is that 206 Slayers have been killed. We haven't seen Twilight personally kill a single one of them and Angel says he didn't. The Slayers were killed either by attacking demon armies, human mobs or the human army that attacked Buffy's depowered Slayers in Tibet. The question is what Angel's role was. He is the figurehead for the Twilight movement which has been behind the human army attacks but it's unclear whether he's given the order for say the attacks on Tibet or been unable or unwilling to stop his military supporters from making them. He tells Buffy he's been trying to reduce the severity of the attacks and I think the idea that governments and the military would act to eliminate Slayer terrorists with or without Twilight's intervention is believable. However, given his superpowers and the fact that he has the ear of the anti-slayer people it's hard to believe that he couldn't have done more to stop the killings. But that's a different thing from finding hard to believe Angel would think he could do no more or Buffy, who's seen even less of Twilights' activities than the readers, believing that Angel was sincere.

[frenchani.livejournal.com]

Thanks for clarifying! It wasn't what I had come across before. I knew I shouldn't have venture out onot the comics territory! :- )

I still have a problem with the anti-Slayer thing and what it means in regard to the spell in "Chosen".

I understand that if you carry on Buffy's journey, you have to deal with the existence of hundreds of Slayers over the world and explore storylines (I know that they already did it in Angel with "Damages" but the episode was more about Angel and Spike than about the Slayer so it isn't the same) but I wish Joss had let the Buffyverse rest in peace.

[elisi]

Excellent non-essay! :)

Especially loved how you phrased this:

Buffy "graduated" from Chosen One to the One Who Chooses which is already a feminist message.
That's absolutely perfect, and I love it.

[frenchani.livejournal.com]

I had forgotten how much I loved to write on Buffy! ;- )

It would be much easier to write in my language but I do my best with the phrasing. ;- )

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

This is really excellent! I feel like it should inspire some thinky thoughts in return, but I really just want to express my gratitude for it. I especially love your insights about Buffy becoming a vampire in S6--that's not something I'd ever consciously grappled with before, and I think it's very insightful. And kind of awesome. :D

Your entire last paragraph is perfect. I think this is something that's getting lost in the whole debate about Buffy herself: if it turns out that the "Chosen" spell was a horrible thing, than that completely undermines the metaphor that was at the core of that episode. And yes, I do believe that would make the comics anti-feminist. As someone who thinks that Joss isn't particularly concerned with feminism but only with inverting tropes, I wouldn't be surprised if he was willing to throw the feminist metaphor under the bus just so he can subvert whatever it is he thinks he's subverting in S8. And...that makes me very, very sad.

[frenchani.livejournal.com]

Thank you. I felt a bit like a fraud for tackling the comics issue whithout having read s8 but your comment makes me think I wasn't completely off the mark.

[next_to_normal]

First off, I must say that I don't think that the premise of BtVs is necessarily feminsist.

Agreed. I don't think Joss deliberately set out to create a feminist TV show or send a feminist message. I think, as penny_lane_42 said, he was more interested in subverting tropes, and the tropes he chose to subvert led to an unintentional feminist message. As the series went on, he embraced that reading, and made it explicit in season 7, but I don't think it was anything he was aiming for at the beginning, nor do I think he feels compelled to continue it, now that he's continuing the story.

But the reading was always there, and I think that's what's so disappointing for those who see her as a feminist icon. It wasn't something Joss built, but it was something they could take away from the text. It's been a lot harder to find something to take away from S8 where feminism is concerned. In fact, a lot of the messages (which again are probably unintentional, because Joss is STILL mainly concerned with subverting tropes) are downright scary from a feminist perspective.

I do think that, for a woman, acknowledging your personal sexuality, needs, likes and dislikes–– whether it's a powerful libido or a weaker one whatever–– instead of following what is expected from you by the others(especially those of the male category), is part of female empowerment.

That's a really good point, and not one I'd considered before.

If Angel is proven right in his belief that killing hundreds of Slayers is for the good it ruins the final metaphor of "Chosen" because Buffy's choice then becomes a mistake. If Angel is proven wrong, Buffy is a fool and still betrayed her sisters.

Either way we lose something precious, I think.

Yes. That's it exactly. Thanks for posting your thoughts!

[frenchani.livejournal.com]

You're welcome. I hadn't posted about my favourite show for a long time but it was fun.

I indulged in mentioning the comics but I'm staying away from that season 8 for the Buffy I loved ended with "Chosen" and everything I've heard about the comics sounds like Joss is trying something else altogether..

Hi, Chani!

[(Anonymous)]

Is this the Chani my husband and I met a few years ago in Paris? How are you? This is Shirley (from aninstant/john's buffy discussion group). I saw your posts on Stormwreath's LJ and thought I would say hello. Do you still talk to Sandrine? Hope you are well. =)

Re: Hi, Chani!

[frenchani.livejournal.com]

Yoshi!!!!!!!

Yeah it's me, same old Chani. Still writing on Buffy as you can see.

Sadly, I haven't talked to Sandrine for a while; she sorta vanished. Last time I heard from her it was in November, as she replied to an email at last, but it was after a year of silence. She hinted at going through something but she didn't wnat to talk about it so I dind't push. I really don't know what's going on. :-(

How are you? have you heard from John?

Re: Hi, Chani!

[(Anonymous)]

We are doing fine. No, I don't keep in contact with John anymore (long story). I'm sorry to hear Sandrine is unreachable, she is a wonderful person. Your LJ looks great, btw! Hope you are having success and lots of fun with it! Email me sometime, I always love talking with you!shirleycobb@mchsi.com

Re: Hi, Chani!

[(Anonymous)]

If you don't mind forwarding her email to shirleycobb@mchsi.com, I would like to try and reach her. I used to have a wanadoo address of hers but I've lost it.

I'll see if I can reach John.

shirley