I think that depends on how you're defining feminism. If you go with "Feminism is the radical notion that women are people", then 'Buffy' - a show which takes its female protagonist seriously, shows her growing into a strong, self-confident and heroic woman respected by her friends and enemies alike - is very much feminist. It's only if you say that to qualify, a show must tackle "serious themes" about women's rights in a very self-conscious manner that questions arise. S7 does do that, and I think there was an element of Joss saying "The show's nearly over, so let's make our underlying message explicit now so we end on a positive note"; but that doesn't invalidate the earlier seasons.
I completely agree. Of course not many tv shows had such strong female lead, so of course BtVS could be seen as "feminist" since day one, but I still believe that it wasn't the biggest deal then, that Joss' hidden agenda was rather to subvert a certain horror genre, and twist common tropes, and that growing-up is the main issue the whole series talk about.
I know it's possibly dangerous to say this in your hearing (;-)), but I do think Buffy had the hots for Angel all along - at least in a small, tucked away part of her mind. He was her first lover and she never quite got over him. That doesn't mean she can't love anybody else, and I think she's well aware that a relationship with Angel is a bad idea and would never work... but whenever she sees him again, part of her reacts the way the 17-year old girl did.
*gets ready to fetch the Scythe*
Actually, I don't disagree at all with that. I've always thought that when you do love you don't stop loving. My problem wasn't the fact that she never really got over me and that he would still have an effect on her, but that he jumped his bones in spite of knowing he was Twilight and choosing to turn a blind eye on it.
She's seen her Slayer Army vilified and destroyed by the rest of humanity. Many of the women who trusted her to lead them are dead. She's been told that it will all come to nothing; posterity won't even remember them. Because she's Buffy, she blames herself for this. Then Angel comes along to say that no, everything that's happened wasn't for nothing; there's a higher purpose behind it all.
Correct me if I'm wrong but Angel did kill hundreds of Slayers, didn't he? He isn't just giving a meaning to the death of said Slayer. He did destroy what she had made possible. Anyway the fact that so many Slayer were destroyed because they were Slayer (not because it's a dangerous job with expiration date, but because they became a target, like in a genocide) and the decision she made in "Chosen" might now, possibly, be showed as a mistake undermines a metaphor that was such a great way to end Buffy's journey with.
But again my "reading" is based on reactions I read not on the comics themselves, and I was mostly trying to explain why I, unlike Caroline, understood the reasons fans could consider the S. 8 storyline "a fall from feminist grace". And above all, I wanted to point that Buffy, despite all her lowest moments in the late seasons was more than never a feminist icon.
But yes using the comics here, while I never read one issue, and backing up my points with hearsay wasn't really sporting. :- )
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branchandroot
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Date: 2010-05-04 05:17 pm (UTC)I completely agree. Of course not many tv shows had such strong female lead, so of course BtVS could be seen as "feminist" since day one, but I still believe that it wasn't the biggest deal then, that Joss' hidden agenda was rather to subvert a certain horror genre, and twist common tropes, and that growing-up is the main issue the whole series talk about.
I know it's possibly dangerous to say this in your hearing (;-)), but I do think Buffy had the hots for Angel all along - at least in a small, tucked away part of her mind. He was her first lover and she never quite got over him. That doesn't mean she can't love anybody else, and I think she's well aware that a relationship with Angel is a bad idea and would never work... but whenever she sees him again, part of her reacts the way the 17-year old girl did.
*gets ready to fetch the Scythe*
Actually, I don't disagree at all with that. I've always thought that when you do love you don't stop loving. My problem wasn't the fact that she never really got over me and that he would still have an effect on her, but that he jumped his bones in spite of knowing he was Twilight and choosing to turn a blind eye on it.
She's seen her Slayer Army vilified and destroyed by the rest of humanity. Many of the women who trusted her to lead them are dead. She's been told that it will all come to nothing; posterity won't even remember them. Because she's Buffy, she blames herself for this. Then Angel comes along to say that no, everything that's happened wasn't for nothing; there's a higher purpose behind it all.
Correct me if I'm wrong but Angel did kill hundreds of Slayers, didn't he? He isn't just giving a meaning to the death of said Slayer. He did destroy what she had made possible. Anyway the fact that so many Slayer were destroyed because they were Slayer (not because it's a dangerous job with expiration date, but because they became a target, like in a genocide) and the decision she made in "Chosen" might now, possibly, be showed as a mistake undermines a metaphor that was such a great way to end Buffy's journey with.
But again my "reading" is based on reactions I read not on the comics themselves, and I was mostly trying to explain why I, unlike Caroline, understood the reasons fans could consider the S. 8 storyline "a fall from feminist grace". And above all, I wanted to point that Buffy, despite all her lowest moments in the late seasons was more than never a feminist icon.
But yes using the comics here, while I never read one issue, and backing up my points with hearsay wasn't really sporting. :- )